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  • #42584
    Topdriller
        • Topics: 76
        • Replies: 1435
        • Total: 1511
        • Practcally Cretan
        • ★★★★★★
        Member since: 3rd March 2007

        T. B. B. Cheese,

        We can hardly complain, comment or lament the rise of Golden Dawn on this forum if we cant and don’t look at ourselves first.  Ricky Travis’s comments may be offensive to some but we should  also be mindful that he has the right of free speech.  There are few among us who do not hold some concerns re the fundamentalist  growth of Islam across Europe.  The fact that Ricky articulates his views in an unsavoury manner does not mean his concerns and those of likeminded others can be ignored out of hand.

        Likewise, neither the Nazi party nor Golden Dawn or indeed the BNP could prosper unless people agreed with their views. It’s truly frightening to think that 17% of eligible Greek voters could support a fascist party but yet they do. 

        Debating with Ricky is important because by doing so others will realise that these far right views are gaining ground across Europe. Have we forgotten Oswald Mosley and the BFU Blackshirts who paraded through British cities in the mid thirties?

        The ingredients that brought right wing parties to the fore in the thirties are here again today and unless we face them head on then who’s to say it cant and won’t happen again?

        Jon

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        #42597
        thebigbluecheese
            • Topics: 109
            • Replies: 256
            • Total: 365
            • Practcally Cretan
            • ★★★★★★
            Member since: 10th September 2009

            Dont want to get into a debate TD but  dont bury your head in the sand and think that everything is a bowl of cherries ..

            063D2236203B3E3E3720520 wrote: There are few among us who do not hold some concerns re the fundamentalistgrowth of Islam across Europe.

            Dont know if you saw this last week , probably not … take heed

            [ftp]http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n8zwn[/ftp]

            #42609
            Gem
                • Topics: 27
                • Replies: 289
                • Total: 316
                • Practcally Cretan
                • ★★★★★★
                Member since: 28th December 2010

                Re: spread of Islam -don’t think TD was "burying his head in the sand" – just the opposite! I also think everyone should be aware of the increase in popularity of GD. Some expats I talk to haven’t even heard of them – now that is burying your head in the sand……..

                #42620
                Topdriller
                    • Topics: 76
                    • Replies: 1435
                    • Total: 1511
                    • Practcally Cretan
                    • ★★★★★★
                    Member since: 3rd March 2007

                    TBB Cheese,

                    The point being, fundamentalism is not only restricted to parts of the Muslim community.  We, the UK, have our own home grown fundamentalists. The Troubles in Northern Ireland might seem over but one spark, one politically motivated death (Adams or McGuinness for example) and it would re surface over night.

                    If anyone wanted to see religious hatred first hand in the UK then a Celtic Rangers match was a must, all be it Rangers are now in Division Three of the Scottish league.   The sectarian hatred these people expound for each other during the match and on forums and social media sites is truly mind blowing.

                    Most people don’t realise that there are annual Orange Day marches in the West of Scotland or that a significant number of ex UVF and UDA members (a euphemism for killers) now live in and around Glasgow.

                    One has to wonder why these fanatics feel at home in the West of Scotland?

                    We’re all rightly shocked by the rise of Golden Dawn here in Greece but should we really be surprised?  People are desperate and know that their politicians have and continue to sell them down the river.  Is it any wonder they listen to and in many cases now support the right wing fascist propaganda?  Those who know their history can’t fail to notice a similarity with the austerity and reparation the Allies imposed on post war Germany and the steady rise of fascism.

                    What’s equally worrying is our European politicians (apart perhaps for UKIP’s Nigel Farage) are either ignoring or don’t realise that the very policies they expouse and which are meant to bind Europe together are instead pulling it apart.

                    Ignorance equates to fear, which perhaps explains why a large number of right wing fascists, religious zealots (which ever God they support) are usually uneducated and easily swayed by the hate filled words of others.

                    But then again, this is not always the case. In 2009 Scotland’s foremost QC, Donald Findlay, was fined in court for singing sectarian songs at a Rangers Football Club dinner.

                    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/findlay-fined-pounds-3500-for-sectarian-songs-1123474.html

                    If the supposed best of the best get sucked into this us and them hatred then what hope for the rest of us in these trying times?

                    Jon

                    #42630
                    Herby
                        • Topics: 3
                        • Replies: 110
                        • Total: 113
                        • BIC Full Member
                        • ★★★★★
                        Member since: 3rd February 2012

                        0B302F3B2D3633333A2D5F0 wrote: Ricky Travis’s comments may be offensive to some but we should  also be mindful that he has the right of free speech. 
                        Jon

                        From what I read in the UK press, Britain is becoming controlled by the thought police. Several recent court convictions reinforce that opinion. (How do you get a criminal record for posting “You let your father down, you know that don’t you.” On an athlete’s Twitter page?)

                        Perhaps Robertson, like many others, thinks that free speech is only allowed if you agree with him/her!

                        He/she may well be happy with the current policy but how long will it be before it is a criminal offence to criticize the government or the EU? You may trust the current lot but who knows who the next lot will be or those after them. It is the start of a very slippery slope!

                        By the way, Ricky said:
                        "Sharia is a barbaric cult…..Islam is not a peaceful religion"
                        I agree with those statements, does that make me a racist?

                        #42639
                        Topdriller
                            • Topics: 76
                            • Replies: 1435
                            • Total: 1511
                            • Practcally Cretan
                            • ★★★★★★
                            Member since: 3rd March 2007

                            Herby,

                            He also called the subjects of his ire "Paki scumbag…".  Would you consider that racist?

                            I’m sure you could also trawl through Hitler’s speeches and find several sentences that weren’t anti-semitic but he was still the architect of the holocaust.

                            Jon

                            #42648
                            Robertson
                                • Topics: 4
                                • Replies: 36
                                • Total: 40
                                • BIC Junior Member
                                • ★★★
                                Member since: 13th September 2009

                                When I said "illegal" I meant that literally. Publishing such a remark is likely to constitute a criminal offence under UK Law (Race Relations Act 1976).  There are already attempts in the UK to prosecute social networking sites for carrying such material. If I were the administrator here  I would be concerned about my position in faciitating access to such a link.

                                #42656
                                Topdriller
                                    • Topics: 76
                                    • Replies: 1435
                                    • Total: 1511
                                    • Practcally Cretan
                                    • ★★★★★★
                                    Member since: 3rd March 2007

                                    We should perhaps remember that free speech is not some God given right but a precious gift our forebears have fought and died for since before the signing of the Magna Carta.

                                    As Herby said, we must never lose the right to criticise political, State or judicial actions but surely that doesn’t mean we can openly abuse others because of race, creed or colour.

                                    I have no problem when someone criticises an individual or a groups of individuals who have done something which any right minded person considers wrong e.g. the 7/7 bombings in London.  However, if the British Government had flown drones above Northern Ireland during ‘the troubles’ and whilst targeting IRA (or Protestant terror groups) had wiped out thousands of innocent bystanders then perhaps the Irish Republicans would have reacted in a similar manner.  Come to think of it, weren’t the bombings in Birmingham, Brighton, Canary Warf, Warrington etc a direct result of the targeted assassinations of known terrorist cells in Northern Ireland?  Imagine their reaction if a drone flying above Bobby Sands’ funeral cortege, which was followed by thousands, had killed 50 mourners!

                                    Britain over the past 50+ years has moved from a mainly Christian to a secular society but 400 years ago we, the State, were murdering Catholics just for practicing their faith.  Have we forgotten that the Pilgrim Fathers sailed in the Mayflower to the Americas because they were being persecuted for their religious beliefs?

                                    When we look at countries like Pakistan we should remember that religion is what binds (some would say controls) their society together.  The West has abolished slavery, views women as equals, has given them the vote, abhors rape etc. but go back only 150 years and none of the above would have been true.

                                    No right minded, civilised person living in Britain today would condone honour killings, forced marriages, genital mutilation etc. but we can’t be surprised that when we opened our doors to mass immigration after the war the people who flocked to Britain brought their culture, their beliefs, their traditions too. 

                                    I have no idea how we educate and change the views of the minority who behave in this manner and perhaps time is the only answer ie once several generations have gone through our educational system they will become assimilated into the British culture, beliefs etc.

                                    What we must not do is tar a whole race because of the actions of the ignorant few.

                                    Jon

                                    #42663
                                    Herby
                                        • Topics: 3
                                        • Replies: 110
                                        • Total: 113
                                        • BIC Full Member
                                        • ★★★★★
                                        Member since: 3rd February 2012

                                        2923203D2E222E2C4F0 wrote: When I said "illegal" I meant that literally. Publishing such a remark is likely to constitute a criminal offence under UK Law (Race Relations Act 1976).  There are already attempts in the UK to prosecute social networking sites for carrying such material. If I were the administrator here  I would be concerned about my position in faciitating access to such a link.

                                        For the sake of accuracy can I point out 2 things?

                                        1) The link posted by Ricky was to a site petitioning for a huge mosque in central London bigger than St.Pauls. You could vote or comment either way.

                                        2) Ricky posted no inflammatory comments on this site. It was TD who cut & pasted Ricky’s comments from another site and posted them here.

                                        #42670
                                        latsida
                                        Participant
                                            • Topics: 165
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                                            • Total: 2572
                                            • Practcally Cretan
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                                            Member since: 17th October 2006

                                            . "(How do you get a criminal record for posting “You let your father down, you know that don’t you.” On an athlete’s Twitter page?)"

                                            Hi Herby,
                                            as is usual with most situations in life there is more to the story that that.

                                            http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/jul/31/tom-daley-twitter-abuse-law

                                            "Daley’s father Rob died last year from brain cancer.

                                            There were other remarks made by the same Twitter user which, out of an abundance of caution, I decided not to include in the first version of this article. However, they have been circulating on Twitter and have been reported by the Guardian. One of them reads: "i’m going to find you and i’m going to drown you in the pool you cocky twat your a nobody people like you make me sick."

                                            #42677
                                            thebigbluecheese
                                                • Topics: 109
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                                                • Total: 365
                                                • Practcally Cretan
                                                • ★★★★★★
                                                Member since: 10th September 2009

                                                073C2337213A3F3F3621530 wrote: Come to think of it, weren’t the bombings in Birmingham, Brighton, Canary Warf, Warrington etc a direct result of the targeted assassinations of known terrorist cells in Northern Ireland?

                                                NO !!!!!!!

                                                Think you are treading a fine line now TD where are you going with this , Whats the troubles in NI got to do with this ..

                                                #42683
                                                thebigbluecheese
                                                    • Topics: 109
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                                                    • Total: 365
                                                    • Practcally Cretan
                                                    • ★★★★★★
                                                    Member since: 10th September 2009

                                                    073C2337213A3F3F3621530 wrote: Come to think of it, weren’t the bombings in Birmingham, Brighton, Canary Warf, Warrington etc a direct result of the targeted assassinations of known terrorist cells in Northern Ireland?

                                                    NO !!!!!!!

                                                    Think you are treading a fine line now TD where are you going with this , Whats the troubles in NI got to do with this ..

                                                    #42689
                                                    Del Boy
                                                        • Topics: 28
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                                                        • Total: 314
                                                        • Practcally Cretan
                                                        • ★★★★★★
                                                        Member since: 24th August 2007

                                                        I think this Ricky bloke is winding the lot of you up, it’s getting a bit out of hand..Can’t seem to get his facebook page up any more. I have seen his page and it’s a load of crap, can’t understand why people write things every day about themselves or others, seems they have nothing better to do.

                                                        #42694
                                                        handy harry
                                                            • Topics: 0
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                                                            • BIC Full Member
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                                                            Member since: 25th November 2010

                                                            Chat like all the above will not resolve anything, religion and politics should be best kept at home, it spreads like a decease .

                                                            #42697
                                                            Topdriller
                                                                • Topics: 76
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                                                                • Practcally Cretan
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                                                                Member since: 3rd March 2007

                                                                Cheese,

                                                                The Muslim terror groups want the West out of Iraq and Afghanistan and think they can facilitate this by attacking ‘soft’ high profile targets e.g.  the Twin Towers, the London Underground etc.

                                                                The IRA (another terror group with a specific religious leaning) wanted the British out of Northern Ireland and thought they could facilitate this by attacking ‘soft’ high profile targets in the UK. 

                                                                Both groups perceived that ‘their’ respective countries and cultures had come under attack from a "foreign power" i.e. the West and Christianity on the one hand, the British and Protestantism on the other.

                                                                Both groups believed the killing of innocents would facilitate their aims.

                                                                The British in Ireland and the Americans in Iraq and more particularly Afghanistan used ever more undemocratic means to target the main players inside the respective terror groups.  America now use unmanned and ever more indiscriminate drones whilst the British used the SAS, internment  and  Protestant backed terror groups to assassinate IRA members.

                                                                The West are currently talking with the Taliban, just as the Thatcher, Major and Blair governments had to finally sit down with the IRA.

                                                                Your NO!!!!!!!! was pretty emphatic and I respectively suggest you read some of the Free Ireland forums to see just how strongly the fanatics still feel about removing all Protestants from Ireland and reuniting the country.  Their ignorance and hatred of the British is palpable and mirrors the ignorance and hatred of the Muslim fanatics who similarly want to remove the ‘infidels’ from their countries.

                                                                Jon

                                                                ps Handy Harry, unless both sides speak out about such issues then neither side will ever understand the other.

                                                                #42699
                                                                handy harry
                                                                    • Topics: 0
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                                                                    • Total: 108
                                                                    • BIC Full Member
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                                                                    Member since: 25th November 2010

                                                                    TD, my comment was ment to clear the forum of this kind of debate the seems not to provide posative solutions to an age old and deep seated problem that the brainstrust of the world cannot seem to solve. :)

                                                                    #42701
                                                                    Topdriller
                                                                        • Topics: 76
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                                                                        • Practcally Cretan
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                                                                        Member since: 3rd March 2007

                                                                        Handy Harry,

                                                                        Why?  You don’t have to read the topic, don’t have to comment on the topic but yet you want to ‘clear the forum of this kind of debate’ because there’s not yet a ‘positive solution.’

                                                                        There’s not yet a ‘positive solution’ to the economic crisis afflicting Greece, do you want to ‘clear the forum of this kind of debate’ too? :)

                                                                        Jon

                                                                        #42703
                                                                        thebigbluecheese
                                                                            • Topics: 109
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                                                                            • Practcally Cretan
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                                                                            Member since: 10th September 2009

                                                                            TD , Spent too long in the Province and some bad memories , I don’t need to read no free Ireland rubbish thank you very much ,

                                                                            #42705
                                                                            Topdriller
                                                                                • Topics: 76
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                                                                                Member since: 3rd March 2007

                                                                                Cheese,

                                                                                I have no first hand experience of Northern Ireland but appreciate that if you’ve spent time there then your perception will be a lot different than mine.

                                                                                I can only speak about what was reported at the time or what has been written after the fact.

                                                                                Jon

                                                                                #42707
                                                                                handy harry
                                                                                    • Topics: 0
                                                                                    • Replies: 108
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                                                                                    • BIC Full Member
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                                                                                    Member since: 25th November 2010

                                                                                    TD, the solutionto the Greek debt problem is well known , more time is needed to solve the debt crisis, the troika demands cannot be  satisfied in the time frame as is. The age old problem of political and reigious disputes cannot be resolved by forum chitchat. helpful advice such as your importation of coal in my humble opinion are forum time well spent and posative.

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